From: Venugopal Kaikulath (venu1005@hotmail.com)
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:15:41 PM
To: Questions On Islam (questionsonislam@gmail.com)
Dear Farhan,
I am very happy to receive your response and I do not mind waiting for however long for your reply because I know it would be worth it. Moreover, I do not want you to be pressurized into replying within any timeframe. Please take your time to reply. I meanwhile wish you and your family the best in this holy month of Ramadhan.
I also condole the passing away of your family friend. May Allah give his family the strength to bear the irreparable loss.
1. You start by saying that it is part of Islam to believe that Allah and his creation are two separate things. I do not see anything amiss here as you talk about ‘believe’. For me believe is not satisfactory. What is the truth? This is the question and actually, the aim of any spiritual quest ought to be the discovery of truth.
2. You also say that Allah does not refer to his creation as something that is part of himself. This too I would agree with because Allah is a single entity, not a composite one. But I do not agree that His creation is separate and unique. The separation may only be apparent to humans in their lower consciousness, like the separation of the ocean and the waves. In reality the ocean and the waves are one.
3. I wonder why Allah talked about His creation as evil?
4. Actually the only attribute that Allah has which His creation does not have is continuity. Allah is eternal whereas his creation is ephemeral. Which is why we, you and I, grow, become old and die, to be created again. We are subject to the law of change. Allah is changeless. Or, to put it in a conundrum, Allah is the changeless change that we are. We recognize change. How? Because there is something changeless in us. How do we see the clock ticking away, its second, minute and hour hands moving? Because there is the still dial. We would never be able to tell the time if the dial was also moving.
5. You say I am looking for a belief (that Allah and his creation is not separate) within the Qur'an which is never stated therein. Maybe it is not stated in the Quran, but I think Allah would have intended us to use the Quran as the guideline and not be restricted by it. Going beyond the belief level and moving into the discovery mode, you are bound to discover Allah within yourself. This is quite what many Sufis discovered.
6. You say we may be small before Allah but this in no way negates our very existence. Actually our existence would be unknown even to us if it were not for our consciousness. Consciousness is the key to understanding not just ourselves but also God. It would be in the process meditation and going deeper into consciousness that we discover ‘Ane Al Haq’, as a Sufi maestro did. In the light of the eternal, the ephemeral stands negated.
7. Contrary to what you assume, I too believe the creator does not exist in the same physical construct as we do. In fact, God is not a physical construct at all.
8. I too do not believe that God is subject to time and space. But you seem to be contradicting yourself when you say that God does not exist everywhere.
9. If you say God is the creator of both time and space, you are, according to your belief, saying that God is separate from time and space. I would rather say that God is time and space and consciousness and maybe other things about which we do not have any clue about at this stage.
10. I agree with you that in trying to comprehend the exact nature of God we are bound to fail since we are limited beings and God is so great and grand. Yet there is a paradox. We assume that we are limited and yet we are able to imagine the unlimited or believe that the unlimited has sought to help us, the limited, by speaking to us in our own language in the form of the Quran. Aren’t we saying that the unlimited has come down to the level of the limited? This, according to me, is the ultimate truth – the unlimited becoming limited and the limited becoming unlimited – God becoming man and man becoming God– the involution and evolution of reality.
11. When you say the main message of Quran which is repeated many times, is to call humanity to the worship of the one God through the guidance of the Prophet Muhammad (Prayers and peace be upon him), I am wont to ask why would God find it necessary to want man to not only worship Him, but ensure that no one else is worshipped? Is not here God Himself putting the idea into man that there could be others man could worship?
12. I wonder if there is not a contradiction when you concede there is spiritual knowledge outside of Islam while at the same time you do not believe that any unadulterated, true guidance to God from God exists outside of the Qur'an and the Prophetic traditions of the Prophet Muhammad. Either something is of God or it is not of God. There cannot be something that is partially of God and partially not of God. This would be tantamount to ascribe partnership to God.
Dear Farhan, we could be heading for a lockjam in our discussions because you take your position on the basis of Quran. However, in my case, I do not rely on any scriptures to sustain any argument for the simple reason that as a Hindu, none of our scriptures teach of any validity in what it says except that we experience its teachings. Therefore all my arguments would be based on either my experience or logic.
In an attempt to clear the lockjam on whether the creator and his creation are separate or one, I wish to ask you one simple question. Who created God? Since I know you are not wont to reply it on the basis of logic or experience, you will tell me what the Quran has to say about it. I eagerly wish to have your answer.
I hope this rather long reply would not test your patience. Please take your time to reply. Or if you feel I am impossible, please at least answer my question, who created Allah? I am not asking this question to tease you, but I sincerely believe that in the answer you give would lie the clue to a great truth.
With best wishes and thanking you for your valuable time, I remain,
Yours affectionately,
Venu
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:18:14 -0400
From: questionsonislam@gmail.comTo: venu1005@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Is Allah less than the total?
Venugopal,
I apologize for the late response. As you are surely well aware, Ramadan started a little more than a week ago and I have not been able to reply to any emails I have received. Also, a very close family friend of mine passed away and I had to go out of town to attend his funeral. It is part of Islam to believe that Allah and his creation are two separate things. Many times in the Qur'an, Allah says "Khalq Allah" which means "The Creation of Allah". Allah does not refer to his creation as something that is part of himself. Rather, it is something separate and unique. Another example of this is in Surah Falaq, Allah says:1. Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn2. From the evil of what He has createdFrom the second verse, you can see that Allah has told us to seek refuge *in* Allah *from* the evil of his creation. In other words, go away from one and run towards another, implying that they are two different things. When the Qur'an says "There is nothing comparable to him", it means that any attribute which Allah has is not in any way similar to any attribute of the creation of Allah. For example, the we are living and Allah has described himself in the Qur'an as "The Living" (Al-Ahya). However, our life and the life Allah are not the same in any way. I have provided two examples. If you want, I can provide you with more examples within the Qur'an of how the creation of Allah is separate from Allah. But, this is a traditional Islamic belief. I think you are looking for a belief within the Qur'an which is never stated therein. You understood from this verse that we are so small before Allah as to say that we do not exist. It is appropriate to say that we are small before Allah, but this in no way negates our very existence. To say that would be to attribute things to the verse which are not said; to go beyond the meaning of the verse. You said: "Furthermore, not only is the Creator eternal but He is also everywhere. If there is a time when He is not or there is a place where He is not, then He is a limited being."The underlying assumption here is that the creator exists in the same physical construct which we do; that is to say that God is limited by time and space, and since God has absolute dominance over everything, he must be everywhere. This assumption is incorrect. We do not believe God is subject to time and space. In fact, he is the creator of both time and space. Therefore, he is not subject to their limitations. This may be difficult to understand from our perspective, because that is all we know, but one needs to take themselves out of the construct that he's used to understand this point. Another problem with our discussion is that we are trying to comprehend the exact nature of God. However, since we are limited beings and God is so great and grand, we are unable to comprehend God beyond our limited ways. If one analyzes the Qur'an, it is quite clear that the main message which is repeated many times is to call humanity to the worship of the one God through the guidance of the Prophet Muhammad (Prayers and peace be upon him). This is the core of Islam and any deviation from this fundamental belief is a deviation from Islam. You asked if I believe there is no spiritual knowledge outside of Islam. There is without a doubt spiritual knowledge outside of Islam. However we do not believe that any unadulterated, true guidance to God from God exists outside of the Qur'an and the Prophetic traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (prayers and peace be upon him). Nothing you have said has offended me. You were simply expressing your views on God, and I understand and respect them. I hope nothing I have said has offended you either. If so, I ask for your forgiveness and your advice. - Farhan
Dear Farhan,
I feel I am fortunate to be in discussion on Islam with a person who is quite clear in his mind as to what Islam teaches. I no doubt would benefit much from your understanding.
Meanwhile, I am still not convinced that there is a Creator separate from his creation. I have the following thoughts on the subject.
You quote the Quran to say, "Allah is not comparable to his creation". Isn't it easy to deduce from this statement that Allah is so great that His creation is nothing before Him? That is, it is as if it (creation) is non-existent. Which is tantamount to saying Allah alone exists. This statement is true because the essential difference between the Creator and his creation is that the former is eternal while the later is ephemeral.
You expressed the same thoughts again when you said, "Indeed, nothing in creation is 100% pure." You may well have said nothing in creation is pure at all when compared with the purity of the Creator. Of course, the impurity has to be understood as something limited, as the ephemeral is when compared to the eternal.
Furthermore, not only is the Creator eternal but He is also everywhere. If there is a time when He is not or there is a place where He is not, then He is a limited being.
When the Creator/God/Allah occupies all time and space, then where do we exist? But exist we do and therefore the only conclusion is that we are God! If this is not obvious to us, it is only because we are asleep, in illusion. We are called, by the greatest of spiritual teachings, including the Quran, to wake up to the truth that we not a limited being but the divine eternal. Most of the interpreters of the Quran appear to have missed this call, except maybe the Sufis.
When I said God is the total, I did not mean that God is made up of separate entities. I meant that the separate entities that appear to constitute creation are actually one and the same thing as is also the entity we call creator. I used total in the sense of all, everything, whole. Therefore, God is not the sum of his creation. Creation is simply the expression of God, just as a dance is the expression of the dancer. You cannot separate the dance and the dancer. So the Quran is right in rejecting God as the sum of his creation.
I wonder what you meant when you said "Muslims depend only on the attributes of Allah specifically within Islam". Do you mean there is no spiritual knowledge outside of Islam?
I look forward to hearing from you and trust none of my comments sounded offensive to you. I say this because I know the sincerity of a Muslim vis-à-vis Islam and he would not want to think, say or do anything that is not sanctioned by the Quran. Verily it is therefore said that the Muslims are a people of the book!
Love,
Venugopal
I feel I am fortunate to be in discussion on Islam with a person who is quite clear in his mind as to what Islam teaches. I no doubt would benefit much from your understanding.
Meanwhile, I am still not convinced that there is a Creator separate from his creation. I have the following thoughts on the subject.
You quote the Quran to say, "Allah is not comparable to his creation". Isn't it easy to deduce from this statement that Allah is so great that His creation is nothing before Him? That is, it is as if it (creation) is non-existent. Which is tantamount to saying Allah alone exists. This statement is true because the essential difference between the Creator and his creation is that the former is eternal while the later is ephemeral.
You expressed the same thoughts again when you said, "Indeed, nothing in creation is 100% pure." You may well have said nothing in creation is pure at all when compared with the purity of the Creator. Of course, the impurity has to be understood as something limited, as the ephemeral is when compared to the eternal.
Furthermore, not only is the Creator eternal but He is also everywhere. If there is a time when He is not or there is a place where He is not, then He is a limited being.
When the Creator/God/Allah occupies all time and space, then where do we exist? But exist we do and therefore the only conclusion is that we are God! If this is not obvious to us, it is only because we are asleep, in illusion. We are called, by the greatest of spiritual teachings, including the Quran, to wake up to the truth that we not a limited being but the divine eternal. Most of the interpreters of the Quran appear to have missed this call, except maybe the Sufis.
When I said God is the total, I did not mean that God is made up of separate entities. I meant that the separate entities that appear to constitute creation are actually one and the same thing as is also the entity we call creator. I used total in the sense of all, everything, whole. Therefore, God is not the sum of his creation. Creation is simply the expression of God, just as a dance is the expression of the dancer. You cannot separate the dance and the dancer. So the Quran is right in rejecting God as the sum of his creation.
I wonder what you meant when you said "Muslims depend only on the attributes of Allah specifically within Islam". Do you mean there is no spiritual knowledge outside of Islam?
I look forward to hearing from you and trust none of my comments sounded offensive to you. I say this because I know the sincerity of a Muslim vis-à-vis Islam and he would not want to think, say or do anything that is not sanctioned by the Quran. Verily it is therefore said that the Muslims are a people of the book!
Love,
Venugopal
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:17:00 -0400
From: mailto:questionsonislam@gmail.comTo: venu1005@hotmail.com
From: mailto:questionsonislam@gmail.comTo: venu1005@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Is Allah less than the total?
Dear Mr. Kaikulath,
Excellent explanation! At first, I did not understand your email, but your subsequent e-mail explains your point very well. I appreciate your enthusiasm for an exchange of ideas.It was said: " When we talk about God, we are not talking about a countable object. We are talking about the Creator, the total, the absolute, the whole, the one, the only - the uncountable." This is where Islam and the understanding of God which was presented differ. According to the Qur'an, Allah (God) has described himself as Ahad (One) and in this purely numerical sense, one could say Allah is countable. However, the same chapter of the Qur'an which says "Allah is one" also says "And he is not comparable to his creation" (Surah Ikhlaas, Chapter 112, Verse 4). Saying "God is the Total" is to compare God as the sum of his creation, a concept which has already been rejected by the Qur'an. Also, Muslims depend only on the attributes of Allah specifically within Islam and the attribute of being "The Total" to the best of my knowledge is not in the Qur'an. We Muslims "Subhana Rabb al-'Alaa" which means "Glory to the Lord, the Highest". This means that Allah is so high, so pure, so elevated, so exalted above any of the creation. Indeed, nothing in creation is 100% pure. Even what we would consider the purest of things have some kind of impurities or harms. However, Allah is 100% pure. To say that Allah is the sum of his creation is to attribute impurities to the greatness of Allah. For example, would someone say part of God is urine, or animal dung? God is above such impurity! In response to the question "If Islam says there is only one God, then the question is begged, what else is there? And the conclusion is - if there is anything else, then the Islamic concept of God is not absolute ." The answer to the question of what else there is besides Allah is "the creation of Allah". Allah is not a part of his creation or one with his creation. Instead, he is separate, distinct, and outside of it. Allah is absolute in that he has control over his creation and nothing happens, not even a leaf falling from a tree, except that it happens by his will and pleasure. Again, I appreciate your question. I hope this clarifies your understanding of the belief in the Oneness of God in Islam and I am looking forward from hearing from you soon!- Farhan
Dear Farhan,
Thank you for your prompt response. I apologise for my question being difficult for you to understand. I concede that I was not explanatory enough. Please bear with me while I have another go at it.
Let us first talk about counting. You can count only things that are less than the whole. If you cut an apple to 10 pieces, then you can count the pieces till you reach the 10 th piece. You cannot count 11 because the 11th piece does not exist. Similarly, existence is made up of multitudinous number of entities. You can talk about 1 apple, 10 apples, a million apples upto a gigantic number of apples, because that many may exist. Even when all the apples have been accounted for you can keep on counting because there are other fruits in existence and innumerable other countable things in the universe, not to talk about the things in our imagination!
When we talk about God, we are not talking about a countable object. We are talking about the Creator, the total, the absolute, the whole, the one, the only - the uncountable. So correctly put, Islam should be saying there is ONLY God. Instead Islam says there is only ONE God. If Islam says there is only one God, then the question is begged, what else is there? And the conclusion is - if there is anything else, then the Islamic concept of God is not absolute.
Please explain this apparent lacuna in the Islamic concept of God. I do hope I have made myself somewhat intelligible. I look forward to hearing from you. Meanwhile, I assure you my purpose is not to argue with you, but to be enlightened through an exchange of knowledge.
Thank you for your prompt response. I apologise for my question being difficult for you to understand. I concede that I was not explanatory enough. Please bear with me while I have another go at it.
Let us first talk about counting. You can count only things that are less than the whole. If you cut an apple to 10 pieces, then you can count the pieces till you reach the 10 th piece. You cannot count 11 because the 11th piece does not exist. Similarly, existence is made up of multitudinous number of entities. You can talk about 1 apple, 10 apples, a million apples upto a gigantic number of apples, because that many may exist. Even when all the apples have been accounted for you can keep on counting because there are other fruits in existence and innumerable other countable things in the universe, not to talk about the things in our imagination!
When we talk about God, we are not talking about a countable object. We are talking about the Creator, the total, the absolute, the whole, the one, the only - the uncountable. So correctly put, Islam should be saying there is ONLY God. Instead Islam says there is only ONE God. If Islam says there is only one God, then the question is begged, what else is there? And the conclusion is - if there is anything else, then the Islamic concept of God is not absolute.
Please explain this apparent lacuna in the Islamic concept of God. I do hope I have made myself somewhat intelligible. I look forward to hearing from you. Meanwhile, I assure you my purpose is not to argue with you, but to be enlightened through an exchange of knowledge.
Regards
K.Venugopal
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:28:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Is Allah less than the total?
Mr Venugopal,
How are you doing? I read your questions many times, but I did not understand what you were asking or the intention of the question. You said "less than the total." The total of what? Also, I do not understand the relevance or intent of your question. Is it to clarify a misunderstanding you have of the concept of Allah?I hope to hear from you soon!- Farhan
Dear Sir,
I shall be thankful if you could please answer the following question:
When Islam says there is only one God, is it not reducing God to a countable object? If something has to be countable, it has to be less than the total. Therefore, is Islam saying that Allah is less than the total?
Regards,
K.Venugopal
Mumbai, India.
I shall be thankful if you could please answer the following question:
When Islam says there is only one God, is it not reducing God to a countable object? If something has to be countable, it has to be less than the total. Therefore, is Islam saying that Allah is less than the total?
Regards,
K.Venugopal
Mumbai, India.
Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click here!-- If you have any questions on the religion Islam, feel free to email me at mailto:QuestionsOnIslam@gmail.comhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXfWcMK0dk8
Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click here! -- If you have any questions on the religion Islam, feel free to email me at QuestionsOnIslam@gmail.comhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXfWcMK0dk8
Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click here!-- If you have any questions on the religion Islam, feel free to email me at QuestionsOnIslam@gmail.comhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXfWcMK0dk8
Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click here! -- If you have any questions on the religion Islam, feel free to email me at QuestionsOnIslam@gmail.comhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXfWcMK0dk8
Download the latest version of Windows Live Messenger NOW! Click here!-- If you have any questions on the religion Islam, feel free to email me at QuestionsOnIslam@gmail.comhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXfWcMK0dk8
No comments:
Post a Comment